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User talk:GW-Dragonrider
This is my discussion page. If for some reason you wish to contact me, please leave a note. GW-Dragonrider 00:32, 14 June 2008 (UTC) Your builds ...are those serious? (T/ ) 00:59, 7 October 2008 (UTC) : a bit of sarcasm detected there Entropy, please expand on that, & thx for dropping me a line. GW-Dragonrider 01:17, 7 October 2008 (UTC) This is a bad build for a number of reasons. Firstly, you have three skills which all do the exact same thing, though Dismiss is the best one. If you need that much condition removal, it would be much better idea to take Restore Condition. Secondly, Glimmer is a bad elite when you have Word of Healing available, or Unyielding Aura / Healer's Boon. Thirdly, you are running a split Monk between Prot and Healing, yet you neglect most of the useful skills in both attributes. A split Monk should take things like Aegis, Guardian, Reversal of Fortune, Shield of Absorption, Dwayna's Kiss, etc. (Protection Prayers is preferable over straight Healing Prayers most times, even in PvE). Finally, Rebirth is not viable as an in-battle res for obvious reasons, though you can sometimes get away with it in PvE... still it's better to put Rebirth on a non-Monk and have the Monk take Resurrection Chant, Restore Life, etc. Even in the case where you run out of res sigs and the Monk has the only resurrect, Rebirth is terribly slow and inefficient. However you get props for taking Signet of Devotion and Signet of Rejuvenation. Remove Hex is decent, but you may want to replace it with Deny Hexes since you have Signet of Devotion. I also see no Mesmer skills, thus no reason for Mesmer secondary. :I will justify this build for you: :The reason I have 3 nearly identical skills is due to recharge time. If the team I am healing gets a condition, it seems all get it at once. I haven't got time for the recharge of just one condition remover. My job is to keep 'em alive. Glimmer restores health v effectively, so apart from hexes which dont last too long, whats left is removing conditions as fast as possible. :I use all your suggested elites often, + prefer glimmer here. :Actually, this is NOT a split build at all. I use NO points in protection. Condition removers need no points, neither does rebirth as I use it. :This is pure healing. Remaining points thrown into divine. :Finally, I have not got rebirth there for in-battle use. I find in-battle rezzes not much use as they are too slow & take my efforts away from healing, (I know about faster rezzes). Rebirth is there (zero points in protect) only as a retrievel device post-battle. Handy at times. :IMO rezzing in-battle is not a monks responsibility. :The 2 healing sigs are only for strange situations where all energy is drained. They are not used normally, too slow. :& of course, the reason it is 2ndary mesmer is 'cos u gotta be something, anything really ! :I think you need to understand the reasoning behind my choice of skills here. I find it very effective in PVE. I appreciate your input here Entropy very much, thx. GW-Dragonrider 02:40, 7 October 2008 (UTC) ::If mediocrity works for you then I guess that's OK. (T/ ) 03:32, 7 October 2008 (UTC) :::Experience confirms this build is far from mediocre. I placed it on my user-page for good reason. Try it, before you condemn it.GW-Dragonrider 03:54, 7 October 2008 (UTC) ::::Nearly anything works in PvE. I used to think that Inspired Smiters were far from mediocre, because "experience confirmed it". I was wrong. If 2 seconds recharge is too slow for you, as well as removing every condition instead of just one, plus a huge heal...well. Very few conditions in the game are worth the time and energy you'd waste removing them with such a build as this - only Blind, Daze, and maybe Deep Wound. But if you are really having condition problems across the party, the obvious answer(s) are Extinguish (on an ele), Breath of the Great Dwarf (on ele), Cautery Signet, Martyr, "It's just a flesh wound."...even having Necro spam Foul Feast is superior. I could prove it to you with statistics why this is inferior, and try to explain why you are failing both at healing and condition removal in terms of efficiency, etc. but I don't think you would care anyway. (T/ ) 04:03, 7 October 2008 (UTC) ::::Oh btw, where are you testing this anyway? I'm guessing EotN since that campaign is only one where you get mass conditions almost everywhere. In other words what achievements have you made with this build? (Other team members can cover for anything but I want to know anyway) (T/ ) 04:05, 7 October 2008 (UTC) :::::Honestly? Completing all 3 campaigns NM, protector Prophesies NM, all HM attempted so far, joining any page in the GWEN handbook (except Destroyer on last page) & jumping into vanquishing & dungeon teams, with glowing comments from team mates. :::::I am interested in your comments Entropy, but I think we have taken this as far as it will go now. GW-Dragonrider 04:59, 7 October 2008 (UTC) ::::::You are the best and/or luckiest Monk that I have ever met, in that case. I tip my hat to you. (T/ ) 07:16, 7 October 2008 (UTC) Pain Inverter is good. Res sig is standard. Empathy is good. But the rest... You are using an IAS with a very long recharge, and no attack skills. Energy Surge and Energy Burn are bad skills for PvE. Shadow Refuge is meh, if you need healing it would be better to take Ether Feast, especially since you get more usage out of Inspiration Magic than Shadow Arts (as a Mesmer). Also, you don't take any interrupts or anti-caster skills, which is kind of the only reason you should ever take a Mesmer in PvE except for two notable builds (see below). Finally, Wastrel's Worry is...questionable. In Prophecies and against certain other bosses, you can spam it for high damage, but against most foes it will be useless or at best a very expensive and ineffective means of doing damage. No Ritualist skills so you don't need Rit secondary. Cryway (taking a bunch of Me/* and/or */Me and spamming Cry of Pain plus some other cheap hexes for huge AoE armor-ignoring damage) is a gimmick build that works well in many places of PvE. However this build has...other stuff...that makes it not so good. Dash isn't a good skill unless you need to get to melee range, and if you are looking for a skill to get out of harm, Return is much better. Snow Storm is a decent damage skill but doesn't synergize with the rest of this bar at all, it is just a random skill thrown in. Asuran Scan only affects your character's [Attacks and so it is doing you no good whatsoever. Finally, this is a Mesmer, and again you're mostly taking vanilla stuff that anyone can use, not skills which the Mesmer excels in (eg. interrupts, anti-caster). (T/ ) 01:37, 7 October 2008 (UTC) :Yes, basicly cryway to start with, with excellent self heal added, twice. Twice for double healing if required, which happens. Dash isn't there for running in, but running out, fast. Yes, Asuran scan only affects attacks, but that is enough, teamed in-between the remorse attacks. & yes, a lot of vanilla stuff here, but together it synergizes well. Try it. GW-Dragonrider 09:49, 8 October 2008 (UTC) ::You can get away with taking no self-defense and no self-healing, if you have competent Monks. This can be a problem with PUGs, of course, but still... Dash as a getaway skill is...signs of a problem. If your backline needs to run away, that means you didn't get aggro set up properly, or you're wiping, etc. For normal AoE stuff, you don't need a running skill. ::Asuran Scan only affects your Attacks. You have no attack skills, and as a mesmer, you could deal ~22 damage maximum using your Staff. That's just bad. You could deal infinitely more damage using, say, Pain Inverter or even Conjure Phantasm. ::This build has no synergy beyond the start of a Cryway build. (T/ ) 23:34, 8 October 2008 (UTC) This thread made a little bit of me die inside. Noble attempt, Entropy, but some people will never improve. That's why pvx has a rating system to weed out the builds that authors won't change because they're too stubborn/unable to listen to solid advice to make their build suck less. -Auron 08:48, 8 October 2008 (UTC) :No, you are way off the mark there, Auron. :I am open to any suggestion that will improve these builds. I appreciate all correspondence, too. Point is, Entropy mostly just doesn't get the reasoning behind the selection of my skills. eg: Dash is for fast escapes, not attacking. :These builds are displayed here because they work very well, to start with. If a better idea works, I will certainly change a build. :I listen, I seriously consider. Just not yet convinced. GW-Dragonrider 09:49, 8 October 2008 (UTC) ::You say up there that "Glimmer restores health v effectively". At 14 healing prayers, Glimmer, for 5 energy, restores 108 health + divine favor healing. Word of Healing, on the other hand, restores 122 health + divine favor, and if the person you're healing was below 50%, it heals for an additional 94 health. It casts a little slower, but interrupts aren't that common in PvE and monsters aren't smart enough to make the monk a primary target for them. The extra one-second of recharge time isn't a big deal either, especially when you consider how much extra healing you get. ::As for the condition removal skills, bringing three of them is a big waste of skills. You only get to bring eight skills - you shouldn't have over a third of your bar used only for condition removal. At most, you could get away with two condition removals - mend condition and Mending Touch, maybe. But you don't need to get conditions off of party members instantly - it's often more efficient to just let them wear off. If you find yourself sitting there doing nothing but spamming condition removals, something is wrong - it's pretty energy inefficient, especially when you barely get any healing off it since you don't have points in protection prayers. And you say recharge is an issue? Mend condition has a 2-second recharge. It's one of the fastest-recharging skills in the game. And when all someone has on them is a condition like bleeding? That's a whopping three health degeneration - it's not exactly life-threatening. You don't have to remove it ASAP. ¬ Wizårdbõÿ777(talk) 14:46, 8 October 2008 (UTC) :::I thankyou v much for your contribution Wizardboy. With due respect to you tho, this is a good example of my point above, that I will check-out every suggested improvement, & adjust a build if I am convinced the idea holds merit. :::I disagree with all your sugestions, here's why: :::I fire glimmer off like a machine gun, that extra second makes all the difference, even without the extra healing. Glimmer therefore, for me, spreads the butter more evenly & faster as needed. :::Actually, monsters in PVE do seem to target the monk, from my experience. :::As I said above, aswell as healing the team, my only other role in life is removing hexes & conditions. I put a lot of emphasis on cleaning away conditions, they have a big impact on success. I don't want to just "get away" with condition removal, I want to excel at it. :::With Mending Touch, I keep well away from this type. Even if they are powerful. I dont want to be distracted in my long range healing by suddenly finding myself in the middle of it all, panicking. :::Finally, as stated above, I am not there to wait for a 2 second condition removal re-charge when a condition hits the whole 8 of us at once. :::I thankyou for your input Wizardboy, I am always looking for ideas that improve my builds. GW-Dragonrider 15:51, 8 October 2008 (UTC) ::::Where's your e-man? Like, firing off all those glimmers and no-heal condition removals has gotta be hard on your energy. --JonTheMon 15:57, 8 October 2008 (UTC) :::::If you're that super concerned about conditions and you're bad enough that you can't simply outheal them until mend condition recharges, take Extinguish or Restore Condition. Also, I would lol if I saw you monking for me in a place with Diversion or dshot or something of that nature. :::::Also, mtouch your backline or midline instead of your frontline (would have thought that'd be obvious, but as you seem to find yourself in the middle of things when you use mtouch...) and you're trying to excel at something relatively unimportant (condition and hex removal) compared to the things that will actually keep your team alive (healing and protting). 16:38, 8 October 2008 (UTC) ::::::Healer's Boon is much more efficient than Glimmer, and since you cast spells 50% faster it makes everything nearly as fast as Glimmer. Even if you used it with Orison of Healing, which is pretty much the least efficient Monk heal in the game, that would beat out Glimmer. I can understand that if you only had room for ONE Healing Prayers direct-heal spell, Glimmer would come to mind - it is unconditional, spammable, etc. However, you have plenty of room on that bar, because you have redundant condition removal. (see below) ::::::You are not at all excelling at condition removal. When you have no points in Protection Prayers, you are wasting your time removing any degen condition. The only time when you can get away with removing a condition because its effects are too strong, are Blind and Daze. (Deep Wound to a lesser extent) Cripple is useless in PvE. The rest of the conditions just deal damage through degen. You waste energy by removing them, instead of healing through them...With points in Protection Prayers, people can afford to remove any condition because it also gives a huge heal. That is why Restore Condition is such a useful skill. ::::::A pure Healing build should not be the one removing conditions in any case. If you are going to bother with Healing Prayers at all, then you focus on healing. (Taking one hex removal is fine though) If you want to run a split build, then do that. If you want to excel at condition removal, then you need to be a Protection monk (which can heal just as well as a Healing monk); or you need to use Cautery Signet/Martyr and take more efficient heals. If conditions are affecting the entire team, then those two skills are the definition of "excelling at condition removal". ::::::About Mending Touch: that is a decent skill but it's usually not put on the primary Monks, since at best you'd only ever use it on yourself or the backline. Extinguish is also a bad skill on the primary Monk. (Breath of the Great Dwarf is better, too) Both these skills work better when put on other characters who can use them more effectively; for example, to counter the massive energy cost you put Extinguish on an Elementalist. And a Ranger is good for Mending Touch. ::::::Heal Other is one of the worst healing skills in the game in terms of efficiency - a primary Monk should almost never take it. So is Healing Breeze. It is no wonder that you thought it was bad idea, since with those skills it is... Heal Party is generally a bad idea on the primary Monk unless they are also using Healer's Boon or Unyielding Aura, and/or also using Glyph of Lesser Energy. Actually, in general it's a bad idea to take a party heal unless you're going to focus on that, since all of them are poor skills on their own: ::::::...gives insane party-wide healing, but as you can see, you lose most of your skill slots when you dedicate yourself to party-wide healing. ::::::Removing conditions is only efficient if you get more out of that energy than spending it healing/protecting/whatever. Also, if the condition is applied repeatedly (eg. Apply Poison), then it is obviously a bad idea to remove it. Conditions are about damage over time and pressure. It's true that if you left someone alone with Bleeding for 20 seconds, they would take 120 damage. But at any given second, they are only taking 6 damage per second. That's not very much at all. This is why degeneration is often ignored and healed through rather than removed or countered directly. The only times when degeneration is a real problem is if it is stacked on the whole party, repeatedly, and it deals so much damage that you can't outheal it. (eg. Apply Posion + Incendiary Arrows, or walking through lava, etc) Remember that even -10 degeneration is 20 health each second, and it would take a full 24 seconds of doing nothing for that to kill a normal level 20 character. ::::::In PvE, except for 4-man areas (and some 6-man areas), you should always take two healers of sometype, usually Monks. You can't always do that in a PUG, but then again Heroes are always available. If you have a Prot monk with you, they should be the one removing conditions. If they are a human player in a PUG, then yeah they may be dumb and not take a condition removal...but you shouldn't have to overcorrect for it so much. ::::::On energy - even though you would be spamming a lot, this build wouldn't be especially prone to Energy problems, as all spells are 5e and you have the Signets. The question is efficiency - in other words you wouldn't be "running out of energy" so much as "not getting enough healing from the energy". ::::::"when you don't have time to finely adjust the build for specific areas." All the suggestions/alternate builds which have been proposed do not need to be finely adjusted etc. because they work nearly universally. If you are the lone Monk/healer, this build wouldn't work in many places. If you have two, you could possibly get away with it. With three, it's irrelevant, and you could even take Mending if you wanted. (I am guessing that you are not the lone Monk in Ring of Fire, since having the healer run away in combat is...bad) I would like to make a suggestion that you try some of the other builds/suggestions and see if you do not find them to work better for you. (Note: how well a Monk build works is reflected in the number of deaths your party gets. A good Monk build means no one dies unless they are stupid or get spiked unexpectedly.) ::::::A final note - A lot of things about builds is based on personal experience, and if you have success with something then you will think it is successful. But, you may not have tried it with all circumstances and team formations. For example, testing whether something works in a party using just the Henchmen is pretty standard, since they always have the same skillbar etc. Let's say that you were in a PUG and all the other members had a strong self-healing. In that case it doesn't matter as much that the Monk isn't so great, since you will still survive. And that could lead you to thinking that the build works. Now, I am not saying that this is what happened for you, I am just commenting that randomness, subjectivity, and variables like other humans' skillbars makes it hard to judge how effective something is. So I don't blame you if, after all this, you still use your same bar and disagree with the suggestions. It took me almost a year to "learn" why certain things were bad, even though my "experience" had taught me they were good. (T/ ) 00:59, 9 October 2008 (UTC) :::Thx to JontheMon & User:Vanquishinger for your help. :::In response, plz note that altho Extinguish condition removes the whole team, it is a protection skill & this is a healing build. This is a pure healing build, as in no att points are used in protect even tho I use 3 condition removers. So, I am saying that this build is not looked on as even a split build. The skills i use just happen to be listed in another attribute, does that make sense, I hope so. ALSO, it costs 15 energy, removes only one condition, & takes 12 secs to recharge ! Point made there ? :::Trying to outheal the conditions is a thought, I originally tried that. skills such as heal other/healing breeze combo, a heal party wth strong energy refill, etc, but in practise I saw this was no good, even with a v good protect monk alongside. :::Eventually I grew to see that removing the source, in conjunction (or not, this is for PUG's) with a protection monk, was more efficient. It works. :::Energy, good question (my ears pick-up). Under normal situ, energy is no drama. Glimmer is only 5 energy for 122 health (if using superior healing rune under your hat). Perhaps the machine-gun analogy is only for very desperate times when the entire team is under pressure. The other unusual situation is an energy drain case, so I retreat & re-charge (eg: ring of fire) or use the healing signets until I recover, that's why they are there. :::This build works very well for me. It is designed for dropping in on random groups with instant mission/quest start, when you don't have time to finely adjust the build for specific areas. If that's your style too, try this build. Thx for the ideas, guys. GW-Dragonrider 22:35, 8 October 2008 (UTC) ::::Do you use full radiant insignias? 22:45, 8 October 2008 (UTC) :::Armor set-up is:... ::::my best suit:... :::::hat 1= anchorite + minor divine :::::hat 2= anchorite + superior healing :::::hat 3= anchorite + superior protection :::::hat 4= anchorite + superior smite :::::chest= survivor + superior vigor :::::gloves= wanderer's + vitae :::::legs = disciple's + minor divine :::::feet = stalwart + attunement ::::my 55 suit:... :::::chest= radiant + superior divine :::::gloves= radiant + superior healinh :::::legs = radiant + superior protection :::::feet = radiant + superior smite :::Thx Felix_Omni for your interest. You have a brilliant user page btw. GW-Dragonrider 23:08, 8 October 2008 (UTC) ::::Insignia do not provide a global bonus. They only affect the piece that they are attached to. There is no reason to take five different ones. (T/ ) 23:34, 8 October 2008 (UTC) :::::Thx for enlightening me on that Entropy. Which 5 x inscription set-up would you recommend for me ? GW-Dragonrider 00:26, 9 October 2008 (UTC) ::::::Anchorite's is mostly useless, since you are usually in trouble if you have that many skills recharging. The only time where you usually have long skill recharge would be things like Divine Spirit and Selfless Spirit. ::::::Wanderer's is a nice unconditional armor boost to elemental damage. You get more than enough of that to make it useful in many places. Same for Stalwart. ::::::I am fond of the Disciple's insignia for my Monk Heroes, even though I also take Restore Condition often. It is a good counter to condition-spamming enemies while I wait for the conditions to be removed. ::::::Radiant insignia is mostly used for PvP monks and special builds like 55, 600/Smite, Bonder. The extra energy is helpful, of course, but a good Monk can operate with the standard 40-45 energy without problems. The other problem with Radiant is, of course, that you get no armor bonus. This not only makes you a higher priority target for monsters in PvE, but also lowers your survivability in general. This also applies to Survivor and Health, although in general that is more acceptable, since in PvE energy denial is rare, whereas more health never hurts (and also makes you a lower priorty target for monsters). (T/ ) 01:12, 9 October 2008 (UTC) :::::::Imo, +armor is bad simply because there's so much in PvE that ignores armor (life steal, degen, simple armor-ignoring damage, etc). Radiants tend to be useless to me because of Glyph Lesser. Survivor is win. 22:03, 9 October 2008 (UTC) ::::::::5 x survivor. Should make a huge difference. Thx guys. GW-Dragonrider 22:29, 9 October 2008 (UTC) Glimmer vs. Word of Healing With Divine Favor at 12 and the minor rune, it heals for 42. (It also does that for the condition removal, obviously). With the superior healing, the healing would be at 16, and that means this (disregarding spellcasting speedup): * has 5 ¼ 1 , heals for 122+42=164, that makes 131 HP/s and 32.8 HP/ '''. * uses 5 ¾ 3 , heals for 138+42=180, that makes '''48 HP/s and 36 HP/ ''' in the >50% case and 138+106+42=286 equalling '''76 HP/s and 57 HP/ ''' in the <50% case. Glimmer costs more (twice as much if the WoH target is below 50%), but is two to three times as fast and allows the healing to be spread to more allies because you do it more. Discuss. --◄mendel► 00:02, 9 October 2008 (UTC) :The first observation is, of course, that much of the time is in the recharge, so other healing skills can be used in that time to bring the HP/s up. In fact, the bar's other skills all cast in less than a second (except Signet of devotion and, of course, rebirth) so they can be alternated even with the fast glimmer, if need be. --◄mendel► 00:06, 9 October 2008 (UTC) & 00:11, 9 October 2008 (UTC) ::Case proven, finally. I will amend my build. WoH & Orison in. Glimmer of Light & Sig of Rejuvenation out. Thx guys, v much. ::btw, I have added my protection build, just for comparison. GW-Dragonrider 00:26, 9 October 2008 (UTC) :::Orison is bad. Stick with Signet of Rejuvenation. (T/ ) 00:59, 9 October 2008 (UTC) ::::Or swap in Dwayna's Kiss in places with, like, wind riders. Getting four or five conditionals is amazing. 01:52, 9 October 2008 (UTC) :::::Good point. I will go for Dwayna. Thx guys. GW-Dragonrider 02:17, 9 October 2008 (UTC) Prot build Aegis is a very, very good skill which has a use in almost all PvE 8-man areas. I would drop Watchful Healing for it, since its only real use is to cast on a Dervish. Since you are running Zealous Benediction, you can maybe get away without Reversal of Fortune...You may also want to swap Shadow Refuge for Protective Spirit, another staple skill for protection Monks. It's even more important in PvE, where monsters are allowed to have crazy high attributes and most bosses deal double damage, etc. And in the event of self-defense, Protective Spirit would keep you alive better anyway. (T/ ) 01:19, 9 October 2008 (UTC) :Two very good points Entropy. Changes made. Many thx. GW-Dragonrider 02:17, 9 October 2008 (UTC) ::If you've got Aegis, Dismiss Condition is essentially a cheap heal that also removes conditions (and would probably do better in the long run than Draw), and Glyph of Lesser Energy is pretty much mandatory for your energy. You could trade out either Rebirth or Shielding Hands for it. (I would keep Shield of Absorption simply because the times when either skill is most useful - that is, when you're taking lots of damage over small packets - Shield of Absorption will generally win out in the damage prevention game.) 02:48, 9 October 2008 (UTC) :::I agree. I was a tad concerned about where the energy was gonna come from now I've added Aegis & Protective Spirit. The sums just didn't add up. You just got there before me. Glyph is mandatory. Much appreciated. :::You are right about Dismiss Condition. With the changes made to this build, this skill now makes perfect sense. :::These new changes will be incorporated. Thx again. GW-Dragonrider 04:46, 9 October 2008 (UTC) Big changes for GuildWiki We, the GuildWiki community, have moved the GuildWiki content to a new site at '''http://www.guildwiki.org. 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